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Old 16-11-2012, 10:17 PM   #1
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Default Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

I work for the local Toyota dealer here in Seymour in sales, and as part of my job, I had to go to Shepp for a training session on the new Corolla.

We were chatting to the TMCA Head Training Manager about the fact we don't have a diesel Corolla, but some overseas countries have them. He mentioned that it was highly likely that diesel would be phased out in Europe before too long, in the passenger sector, as it was too C02 heavy.

Now I wonder what everyone's opinion is on this. I've seen plenty of people on here screaming for a diesel Falcon, but is that really the solution?

I know Toyota's 2013 line-up is going to include a 2.0lt Turbo Diesel RAV4, instead of a V6 petrol, and the new Cruisers are mainly 4.5lt V8 T/Diesels, but the above raises the question of how long diesel has left in the passenger market...

Thoughts?

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Old 16-11-2012, 10:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Diesels have never been that popular in the passenger car market anyway. They are only extremely popular in the SUV segment.
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Old 16-11-2012, 10:31 PM   #3
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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Originally Posted by Bossxr8 View Post
Diesels have never been that popular in the passenger car market anyway. They are only extremely popular in the SUV segment.
In Australia. In Europe, they're the duck's guts. It's hard to find petrol powered cars over there. Helps that "distillate" is cheaper than unleaded over there.
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Old 16-11-2012, 10:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

The reason Europe uses diesels in practically everything possible is driven by the cost of fuel and taxes
but in Australia, the lower cost of fuel makes the diesel less imperative in sedans and hatches where
fuel efficient petrol engines take the day, Mondeo is a bit of a standout but Camry evens the score,
and then again, Toyota shifted over 900 hybrid Camrys last month too, give people a great deal.....
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Old 16-11-2012, 10:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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Originally Posted by sgt_doofey View Post
In Australia. In Europe, they're the duck's guts. It's hard to find petrol powered cars over there. Helps that "distillate" is cheaper than unleaded over there.
And yet Europe is fast heading towards outlawing them. It's strange.
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Old 16-11-2012, 10:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
The reason Europe uses diesels in practically everything possible is driven by the cost of fuel and taxes
but in Australia, the lower cost of fuel makes the diesel less imperative in sedans and hatches where
fuel efficient petrol engines take the day, Mondeo is a bit of a standout but Camry evens the score,
and then again, Toyota shifted over 900 hybrid Camrys last month too, give people a great deal.....
0% Finance on Camry models helps.

I haven't driven a diesel Mondeo, but I drove a diesel Cruze a little. Must admit. It was an absolute bucket. It was uncomfortable and drove all over the shop. At 40,000km it rattled and carried on and I reckon my 97' Hilux would give it a fair race.

The Europeans love their diesel cars for economy and cost. Ironically, cars are built to "Euro" emissions standards.
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Old 16-11-2012, 10:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Within ten years you wont be able to get a diesel engine in a passenger car. You also wont be able to get a normally aspirated petrol engine. And most passanger car ranges will have a hybrid version.
Diesel will live on in commercial vehicles, but will also be hybridised.

Fiat group have halted all diesel engine development, Mercedes are also phasing it out.

Even the cleanest diesel engines on the market (Mazda's Skyactive and Mercedes Blutech) produce far more NOx than even an average petrol engine.
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Old 16-11-2012, 10:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Emissions for diesel will be getting stronger me thinks... they already have particulate burning/ filters fitted in trucks but not in cars... also given its been declared a cancer causing issue...

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The recent WHO report which declared that diesel exhaust causes cancer was widely picked up by various news media. Diesel fumes are of a slightly different composition than gasoline fumes and since 1989, they were deemed as a ‘possible carcinogen’ and now have been upgraded to a definite threat to human health.

Diesel exhaust, however, affects people in a similar fashion to secondhand smoke. Those who are regularly exposed have a higher chance of getting cancer. The WHO study looked at a population of 12,000 underground miners over the course of the past 60 years. Those regularly exposed to diesel exhaust had three times the rate of lung cancer deaths as their peers. Apart from mines, urban air does contain amounts of diesel exhaust as well as particulates in suspension, which cannot always be avoided. This is something that the WHO acknowledges in the report, as stated below:

“Large populations are exposed to diesel exhaust in everyday life, whether through their occupation or through the ambient air. People are exposed not only to motor vehicle exhaust but also to exhaust from other diesel engines, including from other modes of transport (e.g. diesel trains and ships) and from power generators.”

Although ambient urban air does contain diesel exhaust, it is most harmful in enclosed places like mines or housing complexes that are located near facilities that emit a lot of diesel. The study however, does not take into account exhaust from diesel generators which are a common source of backup power in countries like India. Most of these are used in shopping complexes, small-scale industries and even houses, often without proper ventilation.

Environmental concerns in North America, Europe and elsewhere over the past two decades have resulted in tighter emission standards for both diesel and gasoline. The report notes that there is, “strong interplay between standards and technology – standards drive technology and new technology enables more stringent standards.” This for the most part is true, engine manufacturers need not come up with more efficient designs if there is no pressure to do so. Diesel engines are especially challenging because the fuel itself needs to have a much lower sulfur content to burn more efficiently.
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Old 16-11-2012, 10:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

It's ok. The Volkwagen Polo BlueMotion makes up for all the dirty diesels with it's 33km/lt efficiency. That's got to be low on the emission scale, right?
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Old 16-11-2012, 11:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

I've read the same sentiment in interviews with BMW & Merc execs - Diesel is definitely on its way out for passenger cars. Look at what those two companies are doing with pretty much all of their models - lowering capacities and adding turbocharges. The Ecoboost Falcon here in oz follows that trend and I think its a better option than a diesel.

The trend here right now might be diesel, but as Europe moves away from them we'll follow, like we always do. I think Ford offering the Ecoboost instead of Diesel in the Falcon is a good example of some forward thinking - its a far more suitable engine for the eco-option job.
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Old 16-11-2012, 11:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Is'nt benzine also a cancer causing agent,? People stand there sucking in unleaded fumes at the bowser, i'd put money on it there's more risk filling up than diluted deisel fumes in the wind.
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Old 17-11-2012, 07:34 AM   #12
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

The way I see it..

Falcon needed diesel 3-4 years ago. Falcon has missed the boost with diesel, because I believe diesel is on the way out...

Ecoboost Falcon is definitely the way to go & what Falcon needs in 2-4 years time & Falcon will be ahead of the game for once. It is just going to be a slow start (just like diesel was in the first place).

BMW & Merc are already on this path too..

Just my thoughts!!
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Old 17-11-2012, 07:47 AM   #13
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

In Europe they've been seen as "the engine" to have in small and large passenger cars for economy. The best engines in Jaguars are the diesels for example. When it comes to "normal" cars as well, many people are surprised at the huge number of cars from all makers that come in diesel variants that we never see in Australia, even on models that sell here in big numbers. We'reonly just starting to see some of the diesel models from European and Japanese and Korean manufacturers that have been sold as diesel for many years in Europe.

America too has a "problem" with diesel...they'e been spoiled for too many years with dirt cheap petrol, so haven't had to worry about fuel economy. There is a prime example of this in the Toyota FJ Cruiser four wheel drive...it's based on the Prado, but the FJ only comes in a 4ltr petrol engine. People have asked why it doesn't have the excellent, economical, and powerful 3ltr D4D diesel engine, if the platform is just a Prado underneath. The answer is that it was developed in the USA, mainly for the USA market, and diesel over there is simply not seen as a "normal" fuel for SUV's...diesel is for trucks, is the thinking. Apparently Toyota will be bringing our a diesel version next year as they were waiting to see how well it sold in Australia before committing.

Ford and Holden should have had diesel variants of the Commodore and Falcon years ago...they happily spent hundreds of millions on developing bigger and bigger V8's that sold to a very small percentage of buyers, yet kept plugging along with more or less the same petrol straight and V sixes as standard engines. The money would have been better spent on developing diesels or just using off-the-shelf tech...particularly sad seeing as how Ford for one had access to the excellent Jaguar turbo diesels which were powerful and economical.
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Old 17-11-2012, 08:04 AM   #14
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Euro 6 emission standards are very tough for diesel vehicles to meet and require very expensive exhaust after-treatment systems. As emission standards continue to get tougher and tougher over the years, (blame all the do-gooder climate change theorists), it will become economically less feasible to make diesel vehicles on an efficient basis that compete with less costly direct injected and turbocharged small capacity petrol engines which are becoming more fuel efficient than traditional petrol engines.

In my experience diesel engines by virtue of their very high torque at low revs are ideally suited to shifting heavier vehicles on an efficient and effective basis. Anyone who has tried towing a 3 ton boat with a V8 petrol powered vehicle will know consumption can go completly ballistic, over 30L/100 km's isn't unusual and yet a diesel powered Toyotra Landcruiser can do the same job for around 12L/100 km's in my friends experience.

I think the emission standards morphing to such an extent that they'll eventaully make diesel vehicles far less economic to produce is unfortunate and is driven by poltically correct enviromental lobby groups...sadly consumers may be left with fewer choices in the years to come.
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Old 17-11-2012, 08:11 AM   #15
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Yes, it's sad that fuel economy and driveability come a distant second to some green idiots who have the ear of government.

When people complain about Taser use by police, I always counter by saying "Guess they should just go back to shooting people with guns then instead".
In this case, the green governments pushing for such regulations should be told by the car industry "Guess we'll just go back to burning more petrol then instead..."

The trick with a lot of those diesel engined Europe-market cars is that they had a very small capacity engine, with amazing fuel economy, and more torque than the larger petrol engines...and the old saying is very true: "Horsepower makes a car quick, but torque is what makes it pleasant to drive".

You would think there would be two separate types of emissions laws...one for petrol and one for diesel...but that would make far too much common sense for a government to adopt...
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Old 17-11-2012, 08:20 AM   #16
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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You would think there would be two separate types of emissions laws...one for petrol and one for diesel...but that would make far too much common sense for a government to adopt...
Completly agree.

When you look at engines like the small twin-charge one that the V.W. Group trumpet as the answer to fuel economy and emission standards, I can't help but feel that ultimatly consumers will be the ones paying the price in other ways...its not hard to imagine that a very small petrol engine that's direct injected, turbocharged and supercharged will have quite different longevity standards to a small turbo-diesel engine.
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Old 17-11-2012, 09:01 AM   #17
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

They are on the way out in Europe...with a move to Small turbo petrol cars...


This is why i think its funny that some people think ford are stupid for not putting a diesel in the falcon....
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Old 17-11-2012, 09:29 AM   #18
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

The Japanese / Asian diesel technology is light years behind European technology available here today, as their home markets didn't / won't move to the low sulphur fuel.
The European phase out of diesel for passenger cars will be a long drawn out affair and will probably NOT even be an issue here.
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Old 17-11-2012, 09:39 AM   #19
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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Originally Posted by XR6 Martin View Post
Within ten years you wont be able to get a diesel engine in a passenger car. You also wont be able to get a normally aspirated petrol engine. And most passanger car ranges will have a hybrid version.
Diesel will live on in commercial vehicles, but will also be hybridised.

Fiat group have halted all diesel engine development, Mercedes are also phasing it out.

Even the cleanest diesel engines on the market (Mazda's Skyactive and Mercedes Blutech) produce far more NOx than even an average petrol engine.
I tend to agree with this. Having said that, if the 'particles' are the problem, there may be a new technology in the pipeline that helps reduce or eliminate these from the atmosphere (much like a catalytic converter).

I remember 10 or so years ago at Uni a R&D guy from Dyson gave us a lecture on the design processes behind the cyclonic system his vacuum cleaners used. We discussed the other applications the system can work in. I still vividly remember him saying that during their R&D of filtering extremely small particles that 'they could remove cigarette smoke from the air it's floating in'.... but approaches to government to further develop this system for truck exhausts and tunnel stacks fell on deaf ears (this was around the time the Sydney M5 tunnels were being finished are there was a lot of media hoo haa about where the tunnel exhaust gasses were going).

I don't think that Dyson guy liked me, he kept bagging on about how Dyson invented the bag less vacuum cleaner till I put my hand up and said my parents have a Rainbow cleaner that is 20 years old (back then) that doesn't have a bag either....
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Old 17-11-2012, 10:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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Even the cleanest diesel engines on the market (Mazda's Skyactive and Mercedes Blutech) produce far more NOx than even an average petrol engine.
Yeah, the current Mazda6 Diesel is cleaner than a Mondeo petrol. The SKYACTIV-D 2.2 is Euro 6 and the new Mazda6 has i-ELOOP as well.

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Emissions for diesel will be getting stronger me thinks... they already have particulate burning/ filters fitted in trucks but not in cars... also given its been declared a cancer causing issue...
Yeah, DPFs have been in cars for 12 years!
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Old 17-11-2012, 10:54 AM   #21
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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You would think there would be two separate types of emissions laws...one for petrol and one for diesel...but that would make far too much common sense for a government to adopt...
Why??
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Old 17-11-2012, 10:56 AM   #22
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens. Ultimately, IMO, a diesel engine is nicer to drive in day to day activities simply because of the way it produces a lot of torque in the low-mid range, and will always be economical no matter how it's driven. Having said that, small turbo petrol engines certainly are getting a lot better, but as has also been mentioned, their ultimate long term reliability will be a big question mark. For instance, how much do you think it'll cost to replace the fuel system on your 10 year old direct injected, turbo petrol 3 series?

Either way, at the end of the day, we as the consumer win. The more money these massive car companies spend on making more power and torque, and cleaner burning engines, the better for everyone.
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Old 17-11-2012, 12:27 PM   #23
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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Is'nt benzine also a cancer causing agent,? People stand there sucking in unleaded fumes at the bowser, i'd put money on it there's more risk filling up than diluted deisel fumes in the wind.

yes...benzine is a nasty killer....forget the leaks at the pump though it's exhaust that's the problem.

A fully functioning catalyctic converter almost completely abates it.

But..there's always some smarty who puts extractors on their car and a 100cpi cat cause they know better than car makers....

These people are killing others and the magnitude of the fine reflects that.
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Old 17-11-2012, 12:50 PM   #24
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Turbo fed petrol engines will be the next wave in Europe
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Old 17-11-2012, 12:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

I'll go the other way and suggest a home grown hybrid Falcon:
- ZF hybrid 8-speed auto
- small capacity I-6 with DI
- 6.5 to 7 l/100km
- plenty of punch...

FoA doesn't need engines from somewhere else, just change what available to something that's needed.
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Old 17-11-2012, 01:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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The way I see it..

Falcon needed diesel 3-4 years ago. Falcon has missed the boost with diesel, because I believe diesel is on the way out...

Ecoboost Falcon is definitely the way to go & what Falcon needs in 2-4 years time & Falcon will be ahead of the game for once. It is just going to be a slow start (just like diesel was in the first place).

BMW & Merc are already on this path too..

Just my thoughts!!
im not sure why people keep pushing with the notion of diesel falcon. For one thing...thats alot of money to spend on a model thats got a life span of well under 10 years...5 even. Not to mention itll drive like a front heavy dog and have less power(speed) and wont have ANY of the clasic FALCON driving dynamics. IVE ALWAYS THOUGHT DIESEL FALCON WAS A SILLY PIPE DREAM. Now diesel terri has always made sense
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Old 17-11-2012, 02:31 PM   #27
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Emissions regulations will get harder, it just means you're going to see more crap like selective catalyst reduction. Diesel particulate filters become standard on everything after Euro IV emission regulations.

I think diesel will still be around for a while yet, what you see on trucks regarding emissions will filter down to cars.

We've already got crap like EGR, which is a problem in itself because after a while it clogs up inlet manifolds and causes other problems with sensors griming up etc.

I'm a fan of turbo diesel, when you've got a choice of 2L NA engine or 2L TDCI one, the choice is obvious, diesel all the way, NA 2L petrol engines wouldn't pull the panties off your drunk sister.
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Old 17-11-2012, 02:46 PM   #28
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

You are right on NA engines , but the latest Ford ecoboost and VW 4 pots with supercharger and turbo are getting numbers up there with diesel, maximum torque from 1500rpm on just like a diesel. Thats the beauty of these engines -torque from a low level. As you and I know Damo with our TDCi,s its just fantastic having torque low down down in the rev range makes driving easy, mine will pick up from 1000rpm, as you say try doing that in a 2 ltr NA 4 potter-now ay.
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Old 17-11-2012, 05:36 PM   #29
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

Agreed. My 2012 transporter is a 2.0l turbo diesel, and with the blufin tune pulls hard off idle. I could never see a petrol 4 pot do that!
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Old 17-11-2012, 06:55 PM   #30
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Default Re: Diesel passenger cars - On the out?

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Why??
Because I'd rather be getting forty or fifty miles per gallon out of a long lived turbo diesel and maybe producing a bit more CO2 (or whatever the boogie man is this week...) than getting 35mpg from a shorter lived petrol engine...
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