HSV GTS LSA lettuce tomato & special sauce on a sesame seed bun

[strik9]

as you can imagine ,they a laughing at fpv over on the hsv forum.
think the 335 has had its day in the sun now.

[Falcon SXR8]

What I will never understand is why did fpv underate the power figure on the gt ??? It boggles my mind on a performance car that you would do that. Its like the toyota guys advertising the 86 as handling slightly better than a corolla, is that gunna get people excited. HSV always just stick the biggest figure they got on there car and it makes people stand up and take notice. FPV should have imo stuck 380kw on there blown gt back when it was released and made people stand up and look. As it stands now it looks like HSV is up roughly 100kw over ford to the general public.

[Fireblade]

Lets all wait for real world figures before we roll over and surrender to HSV.

Burnz, the GTS is $95k retail with the carbon brake option pushing it over $100k then you add LCT and on roads and the ACTUAL cost of buying the car is well over $100k.

[sbutler]

Originally Posted by Ghosn

Don't know why people tend to make these kind of silly statements.

Firstly, you are comparing a modded car with a non modded car and as soon as you tune your 335, say goodbye to your factory warranty.

Secondly, if you want to compare them equally then compare a tuned 335 and a tuned GTS. Apples with apples.

Thirdly, before making blind statements about what a tuned 335 will do to a GTS, lets just wait and see what unfolds before getting too confident about who tramps who?

Oh terribly sorry for having an opinion[silly statement]. Next time I'll run it by you to see if you agree before I post.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

In outright pace the GT will still smoke the Clubsport and the GT-P will still smoke the R8. The GTS is irrelevant, last I checked FPV weren't charging $100k+ for a supercharged V8.

By and large I agree with you mate but I wouldn't say irrelevant, to do so is to be dismissive of what appears to be a highly capable vehicle, albeit with somewhat quesitonable styling... but yeah its at a different price point because it comes equipped with a ton of technology and gear that must have cost a fortune to develop. Nothing is for nothing, if people want all the technology, equipment and goodies in the GTS they'll have to pay really serious money for it.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Fireblade

Lets all wait for real world figures before we roll over and surrender to HSV.

Precisely. All this techdickery and add-ons will come at a figurative price, and I'd love to know the kerb weight of this car. I'm guessing the 40kg weight difference of the VF vie a vie the VE has been blown to smithereens.

The other thing is: Ford still have the intercooled Miami up their sleeve. Whilst Prodrive took the development car with them, as I understand it the dev work was by and large finished at the time of the takeover by Ford, so for Ford, there shouldn't be an up-front 30 to 40 million dollar spend again on a new performance engine. This gives them the ability to focus some attention on other areas of the car to make it more competitive.

Of course whether they actually do it is another thing entirely.

[jpd80]

Perhaps now that FPV is under Ford control, there is opportunity to better position the cars
against their competition in terms of price, performance and features.

We often jump to the crowning glory hero car but maybe the real battle should be improving the GS to a point
where HSV just cannot compete, give it the GT package and make the new GT same as R-Spec but with intercooler..

Or ,
"Why does my $100K 430 Kw HSV struggle to dispense a 2014 GS with a mere 335Kw?"

[Stefan]

I think the 100K pricing is a BIG issue for any falcodor variant be it HSV FPV what ever.

If I had $100K to blow on a 4 door performance sedan I'd be hard pressed to go past a second hand C63, plenty of beauties at that price.

Take looks into consideration at it is no contest at all, C63 all the way.

[flappist]

Badges smadges.......

How soon everyone forgets the 290kw V8 that had trouble competing with a 245kw rival.
Or the 270kw contender that humbled the mighty 325kw "king".

When there have been independent tests of actual production vehicles not "press specials" only then will the true story unfold.....

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I think the 100K pricing is a BIG issue for any falcodor variant be it HSV FPV what ever.

.

Really is 100k that much for something so special? The average buyer who trades in their Kia Sportage every 3 years would have ended up spending close to 100k in a decade. At least with a GTS or FU GTHO, it is the kind of car you can keep forever and pass on to your grand kids... Imagine going for cruises around the retirement village scaring the other grandpas and grandmas.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

What I will never understand is why did fpv underate the power figure on the gt ??? It boggles my mind on a performance car that you would do that. Its like the toyota guys advertising the 86 as handling slightly better than a corolla, is that gunna get people excited. HSV always just stick the biggest figure they got on there car and it makes people stand up and take notice. FPV should have imo stuck 380kw on there blown gt back when it was released and made people stand up and look. As it stands now it looks like HSV is up roughly 100kw over ford to the general public.

At a guess they didn't want the launch of the Miami to be overshadowed with super car scare stories. Another would be if the driveline proved to be a problem reliability/warranty wise, they could detune existing customers cars without breaking the promised performance the badge said the car has.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Perhaps now that FPV is under Ford control, there is opportunity to better position the cars
against their competition in terms of price, performance and features.

We often jump to the crowning glory hero car but maybe the real battle should be improving the GS to a point
where HSV just cannot compete, give it the GT package and make the new GT same as R-Spec but with intercooler..

Or ,
"Why does my $100K 430 Kw HSV struggle to dispense a 2014 GS with a mere 335Kw?"

The only way to beef the GS up in spec and not upset GT owners, would be if the GT-E/GT-P bits were added to the base GT. Not a bad idea, but I don't think just a higher engine output, would please GT owners.

Alternatively GS goes away and reappears as the XR8 the next day with less stripes, different wheels and a 15K price cut.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Really is 100k that much for something so special? The average buyer who trades in their Kia Sportage every 3 years would have ended up spending close to 100k in a decade. At least with a GTS or FU GTHO, it is the kind of car you can keep forever and pass on to your grand kids... Imagine going for cruises around the retirement village scaring the other grandpas and grandmas.

I doubt your cost comparisons would add up? Take into account maintenance, rego, insurance etc, and I don't think that it would be a good investment. And I also reckon 100k is a hell of a lot of money whether it be for a car or not.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Really is 100k that much for something so special? The average buyer who trades in their Kia Sportage every 3 years would have ended up spending close to 100k in a decade. At least with a GTS or FU GTHO, it is the kind of car you can keep forever and pass on to your grand kids... Imagine going for cruises around the retirement village scaring the other grandpas and grandmas.

Based on that theory a rather worn out 300,000++ km ratty looking old commodore that used to be quite quick.......

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

The only way to beef the GS up in spec and not upset GT owners, would be if the GT-E/GT-P bits were added to the base GT. Not a bad idea, but I don't think just a higher engine output, would please GT owners.

Alternatively GS goes away and reappears as the XR8 the next day with less stripes, different wheels and a 15K price cut.

Why could Ford do all of the above, a basic 315 XR8, a 335Kw GS (Former GT) and a new GT (R-Spec plus intercooled V8)
I think the way the R-Spec sold out so quickly was an indication that Prodrive knew exactly what was needed by GT buyers..

I remeber Flappist's enlightened view on car customisation and how most options can be covered but some have to be
done by prospective owners to get the type of interior desired, maybe this is a idea that Ford could outsource as part
of future GTE packages....really plush sumptuous interiors worthy of the cash paid for them..

[ford man xf]

Is anyone else a bit suss on the 150 deposit claim? Sounds to me like a brillant publicity stunt, it made the papers and even one radio news segment that I heard plus it creates a bit of paranoia amongst prospective buyers that they may miss out or have to wait a long time to order one

[krypto71]

I've always liked the HSV's thru the years, but I think in the case of Gen-F, I'd rather a V8 Calais, lowered with some nice big rims.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Is anyone else a bit suss on the 150 deposit claim? Sounds to me like a brillant publicity stunt, it made the papers and even one radio news segment that I heard plus it creates a bit of paranoia amongst prospective buyers that they may miss out or have to wait a long time to order one

Well a flock of seagulls may have flown over the factory, they leave deposits on everything.......

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Is anyone else a bit suss on the 150 deposit claim? Sounds to me like a brillant publicity stunt, it made the papers and even one radio news segment that I heard plus it creates a bit of paranoia amongst prospective buyers that they may miss out or have to wait a long time to order one

Maybe the same group of people who withdrew from ordering the last of the W427s?

[devoGT]

Originally Posted by Fireblade

Burnz, the GTS is $95k retail with the carbon brake option pushing it over $100k then you add LCT and on roads and the ACTUAL cost of buying the car is well over $100k.

The six pot calipers are standard on GTS, no option for better brakes on VF GTS.

This thread is longer than the GTS threads on Holden forums

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by devoGT

The six pot calipers are standard on GTS, no option for better brakes on VF GTS.

This thread is longer than the GTS threads on Holden forums

It's not so much about dragging down the GTS, it's more about how Ford and FPV intends to respond
or whether in fact FPV needs to do anything at all..

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It's not so much about dragging down the GTS, it's more about how Ford and FPV intends to respond
or whether in fact FPV needs to do anything at all..

FPV should try and respond, for their lack of sale's...

[flooded one]

i'd laugh if ford does respond. I'd laugh even more if it was with something that flogged this and had more power at the wheels and still just for giggles kept the 335 stickers on it!!

[f6 boss]

i dont understand why everyone is arguing "this is good, this is bad"..

reality is the GTS is here to stay, its got all the tech, great mechanical hardware and costs 100K. Everyone is saying we shall see how the 430kw gts goes on the track and on the dyno.. You dont have to really, just look at the ZL1 in the states, they run 117-118 mph down the 1/4 on 93 octane, also factor in "above sea level altitude". Not every state or country is blessed with 20m - 100m above sea level such as melbourne, and other major cities in australia. Dont also forget the zl1 weighs in at 1800+kg too.
So if you compare the zl1 with 93 octane + much higher altitude doing 117mph to the 98 octane we put into our sports cars doing 113-114mph. There isnt much difference is there. Guys dont be surprised when spiro or elite get one on the dyno and pumps out 360 rwkw+ on 98 for a stock car and go down the quarter trapping at 119 mph. Factor in holdens effort to reduce weight, although official weight is not confirmed yet. But i can tell you that every 75kg makes a 1.5 car lengths difference from 60 km/h to 170 km/h. Trust me, me and my mates tested this on two bf xr6 turbo with both zf. Imagine this factor in the GTS that could weigh inside 1700kg's range. 1.5 car lengths is alot to buy!

When the GTS does release alot of people are going to be surprised

[dimka100]

The GS is a pitiful seller, Ford have said it themselves, the GT outsells the GS 10 to 1 yet its dearer. The point is the market above 50K is far different now days, people would much rather pay more to get more kit than less for less kit ... This is why HSV spent so much on their top end GTS model, they know the market for 100K plus sedans is very hot right now.

As for the GS if its re-badged to XR8 the price would have to drop near XR6T territory, so you are talking mid 40K bracket maximum.

Lastly while the R-Spec was snapped up by the dealers quickly, the actual public has not done so. There are still plenty of new cars sitting at the dealers and waiting for potential owners, and that's not a good sign considering the model was released last year.

People get too carrier away with power numbers and forget that HSV has long won the sales war. Even when the VE was no longer the fastest and getting too old in the tooth, HSV has still managed to easily outsell FPV 2 to 1. I'm afraid that with the release of the F series that gap will only keep growing ...

Originally Posted by jpd80

Why could Ford do all of the above, a basic 315 XR8, a 335Kw GS (Former GT) and a new GT (R-Spec plus intercooled V8)
I think the way the R-Spec sold out so quickly was an indication that Prodrive knew exactly what was needed by GT buyers...

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by f6 boss

i dont understand why everyone is arguing "this is good, this is bad"..

reality is the GTS is here to stay, its got all the tech, great mechanical hardware and costs 100K. Everyone is saying we shall see how the 430kw gts goes on the track and on the dyno.. You dont have to really, just look at the ZL1 in the states, they run 117-118 mph down the 1/4 on 93 octane, also factor in "above sea level altitude". Not every state or country is blessed with 20m - 100m above sea level such as melbourne, and other major cities in australia. Dont also forget the zl1 weighs in at 1800+kg too.
So if you compare the zl1 with 93 octane + much higher altitude doing 117mph to the 98 octane we put into our sports cars doing 113-114mph. There isnt much difference is there. Guys dont be surprised when spiro or elite get one on the dyno and pumps out 360 rwkw+ on 98 for a stock car and go down the quarter trapping at 119 mph. Factor in holdens effort to reduce weight, although official weight is not confirmed yet. But i can tell you that every 75kg makes a 1.5 car lengths difference from 60 km/h to 170 km/h. Trust me, me and my mates tested this on two bf xr6 turbo with both zf. Imagine this factor in the GTS that could weigh inside 1700kg's range. 1.5 car lengths is alot to buy!

When the GTS does release alot of people are going to be surprised

Good points, but I think the main argument is pricing. Compare the FPV and HSV top offerings and there is a massive difference in price for two very similar products, performance is going to be similar with the GTS taking the prize for performance, but that's expected since they have released a new model and FPV haven't, so now FPV has to play catch up. I stated in another thread on how it will be interesting what HSV will do in terms of official power figures, whether they underquote like Ford have done or do they quote the true power.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by dimka100

People get too carrier away with power numbers and forget that HSV has long won the sales war. Even when the VE was no longer the fastest and getting too old in the tooth, HSV has still managed to easily outsell FPV 2 to 1. I'm afraid that with the release of the F series that gap will only keep growing ...

FPV have probably been the king of performance since the F6 was first released. V8 killer.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by dimka100

The GS is a pitiful seller, Ford have said it themselves, the GT outsells the GS 10 to 1 yet its dearer. The point is the market above 50K is far different now days, people would much rather pay more to get more kit than less for less kit ... This is why HSV spent so much on their top end GTS model, they know the market for 100K plus sedans is very hot right now.

Weirdly enough I see more GS's on the road than I do GT's, maybe the GT owners bubble wrap their cars and hide them away only for the weekends?
On top of that the New Zealanders love their Falcons, not sure how many GT's they buy but I remember seeing the New Zealand sales figures and the selling trend is the exact opposite to Australia with Ford & FPV dominating sales, but that was a couple of years ago, the figures might be different now.

[lucas2]

Originally Posted by f6 boss

So if you compare the zl1 with 93 octane + much higher altitude doing 117mph to the 98 octane we put into our sports cars doing 113-114mph. There isnt much difference is there.

The US uses a different octane rating on there fuels. 93 is their equivalent of our 98-100RON I'm pretty sure.

[timetaker]

Hi

This is my first post.
The VF GTS has captured a lot of headlines lately and it will be a little sad when Ford has to hand the performance/power mantle to GMH.The GTS will be great value compared to the European competitors,which GMH are targeting.I hate to say it but it will be a level up on the GT in terms of performance as well as in price range.
I don't believe that Ford will counter with a higher performing GT,sure the next updated Falcon FPV will have more power and torque but not to the level of the GTS....it would be very costly!
One solution would be to shoe horn the 5.8L GT500 engine in the GT.However with such power(492 kw) and massive torque(854 nm)that significantly exceeds the LSA,the Falcon would require serious re engineering input....again too costly.
Also we need to be ready for any GTS vs GT YouTube clips.I expect a number of Holden supporters "sticking" it to the Fords which is understandable considering they've been habouring pent up frustration for a number of years.