Why was fuel in the past better quality?

[ford man xf]

I understand that the old super or leaded fuels contained lead and this increased the octane rating, other than that what made fuels in the past superior compared to todays fuels, all the older guys always say that the fuels of today are poorer quality?

[malazn mafia]

Why were the people, places and things on this planet in the past better quality?

[XR Martin]

Yeah old fuel was better quality just like old cars are safer.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Super was 94 RON I think?

So, compared to regular 91 it wasn't as good.

The lead was a lubricant for valves wasn't it? Did that do anything else like enhance combustion?

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Super was 94 RON I think?

So, compared to regular 91 it wasn't as good.

The lead was a lubricant for valves wasn't it? Did that do anything else like enhance combustion?

No. In the good old days, Super was 98 RON, Standard was 92 RON.

And the lead lubricated the valve seats.

[blueluvr]

it was used as an octane booster and also as an exhaust valve/seat anti "microweld" issue which would wear the two mating surfaces. the TEL stopped this happening.

Modern science and metallurgy has negated the use for it. Of course the TEL had to be removed to allow the fitment of catalytic converters.

Old school petrol was not "better" it's just different. Having said that I do notice newer fuel does not last as long sitting in vented fuel tanks (motorcycles) as the old stuff. Maybe the TEL had something to do with that, maybe they have removed some kind of additive they used to use, maybe the flash point of the newer stuff is lower and all the "goodness" evaporates off quicker when in a vented container? I don't have an answer for that but being a bike wrench for 20 odd years I definitely notice it

[ford man xf]

2 tuners (old school carby tuners) have said to me that todays fuel doesn't compare, maybe they are just getting old and their memories have fuzzed out

[XR Martin]

I think they've spent too much time breathing in the fumes.

Despite how 'low quality' modern fuel is, plenty of cars are making 100kw/L, something they never did in the past.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Despite how 'low quality' modern fuel is, plenty of cars are making 100kw/L, something they never did in the past.

Isn't that more to do with advancements in engine management technology/fuel injection? At least with economy it is, power wise I could be totally wrong?

[irish2]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

I think they've spent too much time breathing in the fumes.

Despite how 'low quality' modern fuel is, plenty of cars are making 100kw/L, something they never did in the past.

I think you will find, that if you went to a proper drag strip on a Saturday night, more carby fed cars will run 10's than EFI. Food for thought.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by irish2

I think you will find, that if you went to a proper drag strip on a Saturday night, more carby fed cars will run 10's than EFI. Food for thought.

Yep and if you go back 100 years I bet you'll find more drag racing horses then model t fords.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by irish2

I think you will find, that if you went to a proper drag strip on a Saturday night, more carby fed cars will run 10's than EFI. Food for thought.

about 10 years ago I would of agreed with you. know days its a huge mixture of both Carby and EFI so I really don't know anymore. there are still plenty of Carby fed cars drag racing and I don't think they will go away in a hurry. there still very popular. expect to see more EFI powered cars in the future thou

[Xauterus]

Originally Posted by irish2

I think you will find, that if you went to a proper drag strip on a Saturday night, more carby fed cars will run 10's than EFI. Food for thought.

People are using carbs because they are cheaper and simpler to tune. Fuel injection is superior but costs more and is not so DIY friendly.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Xauterus

People are using carbs because they are cheaper and simpler to tune. Fuel injection is superior but costs more and is not so DIY friendly.

Superior at saving fuel at low revvs mainly. A lot of top sports bikes only went to EFI in the early 2000's. No power gains were made, in fact some even dropped in peak power. They increased the fuel mileage slightly.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by irish2

Superior at saving fuel at low revvs mainly. A lot of top sports bikes only went to EFI in the early 2000's. No power gains were made, in fact some even dropped in peak power. They increased the fuel mileage slightly.

I have been told that carb'ed engines actually increase rev's quicker from down lower in the rev range because carbs react quicker to throttle demand.

I still think EFI is the way to go tho because it can measure fuel loads much better and maybe even save some?.

[Bearman]

Old school super fuel was far more chemically stable and had a much better shelf life. It was also easier on the engine with better valve lubrication etc.

Today's fuel is garbage in the sense that it goes off after only a few weeks. My engine builder recommended to only fill up at prominently positioned servos which have high volume sales to ensure I get fresh fuel.

The do gooders decreed lead as evil and must be banished from fuel, instead replaced with an assortment of chemicals that are about 48 times more toxic. Great!!!

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Bearman

Old school super fuel was far more chemically stable and had a much better shelf life. It was also easier on the engine with better valve lubrication etc.

Today's fuel is garbage in the sense that it goes off after only a few weeks. My engine builder recommended to only fill up at prominently positioned servos which have high volume sales to ensure I get fresh fuel.

The do gooders decreed lead as evil and must be banished from fuel, instead replaced with an assortment of chemicals that are about 48 times more toxic. Great!!!

How do you tell if fuel has gone off? Started an FG turbo that had been sitting 9 months with a full tank and it still boosted and ran like it had a fresh batch of fuel

[Jastel]

Open the tank and smell it...it will be rank and smell more like varnish...not petrol.

Bad fuel is more common in dual fuel LPG cars, it must be used and replaced regularly. When car is running on LPG there is still vacuum on the tank and it sucks the "good stuff" out of it and leaves you with stinky varnish crap.

On a petrol only car when not running the tank is sealed so it wont lose as much goodness. Similar for a sealed jerry can etc.

Excuse my technical terms but it is true.

I reckon there are far more chemical additives in modern petrol than the old stuff

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Jastel

Open the tank and smell it...it will be rank and smell more like varnish...not petrol.

Bad fuel is more common in dual fuel LPG cars, it must be used and replaced regularly. When car is running on LPG there is still vacuum on the tank and it sucks the "good stuff" out of it and leaves you with stinky varnish crap.

On a petrol only car when not running the tank is sealed so it wont lose as much goodness. Similar for a sealed jerry can etc.

Excuse my technical terms but it is true.

I reckon there are far more chemical additives in modern petrol than the old stuff

Chemical Additives? Loss of "Goodness"?
Are we talking about petrol or bottled OJ?

For starters, most of the misinformation about fuel going off is perpetuated by manufacturers of fuel additives sold to stop this happening. (Surprise surprise.)

Basic petrol is a dirty hodgepodge of compounds, from different parts of the refining process, and will vary depending on the crude oil composition and the refinery. Additives are used to meet RON requirements, slow oxidization, scavenge metal salts, etc, etc. High end fuels also tend to have additives designed to keep injectors clean, and limit carbon build-up.

Over time, 4 main things can happen to fuel:
Biological contamination. This is a big problem with Diesel, but can also affect petrol.
Evaporation. The most volatile aromatics will go first.
Reaction. Since petrol is a blend, with additives, over time some reaction can occur between the various compounds, and even with metals.
Oxidation. Continued exposure to air can cause some of the compounds to dry and thicken, becoming gummy. These give rise to the stinky varnish smell, and are woeful for gumming up jets and injectors.

That said, modern fuels are on the whole much better, particularly the antioxidant and detergent additives. Whilst they in turn deteriorate faster than the base petrol, it is still better than untreated fuel.

[Jastel]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Chemical Additives? Loss of "Goodness"?
Are we talking about petrol or bottled OJ?

For starters, most of the misinformation about fuel going off is perpetuated by manufacturers of fuel additives sold to stop this happening. (Surprise surprise.)

Basic petrol is a dirty hodgepodge of compounds, from different parts of the refining process, and will vary depending on the crude oil composition and the refinery. Additives are used to meet RON requirements, slow oxidization, scavenge metal salts, etc, etc. High end fuels also tend to have additives designed to keep injectors clean, and limit carbon build-up.

Over time, 4 main things can happen to fuel:
Biological contamination. This is a big problem with Diesel, but can also affect petrol.
Evaporation. The most volatile aromatics will go first.
Reaction. Since petrol is a blend, with additives, over time some reaction can occur between the various compounds, and even with metals.
Oxidation. Continued exposure to air can cause some of the compounds to dry and thicken, becoming gummy. These give rise to the stinky varnish smell, and are woeful for gumming up jets and injectors.

That said, modern fuels are on the whole much better, particularly the antioxidant and detergent additives. Whilst they in turn deteriorate faster than the base petrol, it is still better than untreated fuel.

I'm talking about petrol.

Volatile aromatics is probably the "good stuff" I was referring to and couldn't remember at midnight....
The crud that's left wont run your car properly, that's for sure.

I don't use ANY additives...ever

I have been told (not actually done) that to store petrol for long periods in cars/boats/mowers etc it is good idea to put in some two stroke oil and it wont go off as badly.

[Bearman]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

How do you tell if fuel has gone off? Started an FG turbo that had been sitting 9 months with a full tank and it still boosted and ran like it had a fresh batch of fuel

I'm not sure you can in a modern car which is equipped with computers, sensors etc so are programmed to automatically compensate for differences in fuel quality. You may notice a slight loss of power but, unless the fuel has turned to vinegar, the change will be subtle.

Old school cars, especially with modified motors are much more sensitive to this. If I get a bad batch in the coupe the main symptoms are it'll run a bit rough, maybe ping or just be down on power. I might experience all 3.

There are a lot of variables in fuel quality these days. I run the coupe only on BP Ultimate and fill up only at high turnover servos.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by Bearman

There are a lot of variables in fuel quality these days. I run the coupe only on BP Ultimate and fill up only at high turnover servos.

Yep I'm the same as you, BP premium is by far the best fuel, I have tried premiums from every other servo and they just seem like normal fuel, I get the same economy and really don't notice any performance gain, with BP fuels I do notice the difference.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

How do you tell if fuel has gone off? Started an FG turbo that had been sitting 9 months with a full tank and it still boosted and ran like it had a fresh batch of fuel

I have a turbo European car that sits for extended lengths of time. In fact, I think it hasn't been totally 'filled up' in 18 months.

When I do take it for a spin I first go to the servo and fill a jerry can with the highest octane fuel I can get, then add an octane booster to that, then add that to the tank and leave it to sit for a while while I shake the back end to mix it all around.

Starts first time and seems to go 'ok'.... I baby it along till the pipes get the fresher fuel through then give it a bit of a squirt....

Drive it around for a bit to 'keep it going' and when I return there is 4-5 litres gone from the tank ready for the next time I decide to take it out and repeat the process with the jerry can once again.

Actually... now that I got some free time I should jump her and take her for a spin. Perhaps tomorrow

I used to be a member of a car club and a guy had a car sitting for ages (years??) before a restoration, then spent big on body and mechanical only to neglect the stale fuel. First time it ran was a track day and the motor blew because what it was ingesting certainly wasn't anything that resembled 'fuel'...

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

.....a guy had a car sitting for ages (years??) before a restoration, then spent big on body and mechanical only to neglect the stale fuel. First time it ran was a track day and the motor blew because what it was ingesting certainly wasn't anything that resembled 'fuel'...

Bangs head on door frame until forehead bleeds then bangs again.
What a dill and more so as it was a resto that the owner knew enough to track it but not to check something critical like a fluid.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

How do you tell if fuel has gone off? Started an FG turbo that had been sitting 9 months with a full tank and it still boosted and ran like it had a fresh batch of fuel

It's oxygen that causes fuel to go bad. Filling the tank minimises oxygen and allows the fuel to last quite a while.

Bad fuel is noticeable by - Engine hard to start; at first cranking times are longer before firing. Smell; off fuel gives off a distinctive foul odour. Extreme cases; a varnish like deposit coats everything - fuel lines, pump, injectors.

Normally noticeable on duel fuel vehicles that have near empty petrol tanks for 3 months or longer.

[Franco Cozzo]

Was it responsible for carbon monoxide emissions as well? I'm not sure if it was Catalytic converter that cut down hugely on carbon monoxide emissions or the removal of leaded fuel?

I dunno, we learnt about it in year 11 environmental science and that was in 2008, my brain has deteriorated, I've been on AFF for far too long lol.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Was it responsible for carbon monoxide emissions as well? I'm not sure if it was Catalytic converter that cut down hugely on carbon monoxide emissions or the removal of leaded fuel?

I dunno, we learnt about it in year 11 environmental science and that was in 2008, my brain has deteriorated, I've been on AFF for far too long lol.

Catalyctic converters have done a lot for emissions I believe, anyone who lives in Melbourne and has been to sky high in the Dandenongs (which is a mountain range in Melbournes south east and has observation car park on top with views all the way to Port Phillip bay) would remember in the 80's/90's on some days the smog was so bad you couldn't see the city skyline or the bay on most days, now you can go up there anytime and always have good views, this could also be attributed to the banning of burning off and cars which emit less pollution, but I am sure the introduction of the catalyctic converter played a part, even though us car modders hate them.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Catalyctic converters have done a lot for emissions I believe, anyone who lives in Melbourne and has been to sky high in the Dandenongs (which is a mountain range in Melbournes south east and has observation car park on top with views all the way to Port Phillip bay) would remember in the 80's/90's on some days the smog was so bad you couldn't see the city skyline or the bay on most days, now you can go up there anytime and always have good views, this could also be attributed to the banning of burning off and cars which emit less pollution, but I am sure the introduction of the catalyctic converter played a part, even though us car modders hate them.

You can still see the Smog around Melbourne if you go to Sunbury via Riddles Creek, there is a spot where you can see the city and can notice it.

Obviously it isnt as bad as it was back then but you can still see it and notice it.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

You can still see the Smog around Melbourne if you go to Sunbury via Riddles Creek, there is a spot where you can see the city and can notice it.

Obviously it isnt as bad as it was back then but you can still see it and notice it.

You are almost not as old as my mobile. How do you even know what smog was in the past?

[1TUFFUTE]

Anybody mention that they're allowed to "water" down fuels by like 3% these days from memory. Perhaps that's raised n lowered over the years giving worse fuel quality!